[jonb]

Looking at world and brc the future for young drivers is a S1600, should it be introduced here, a proper National Championship Loose and Tarmac. I know that S1600 are expensive to run but the cost of the cars is coming down. I think it would be a great Idea, 7 1 day rallies, would be enough.

I know next year any young driver with ambition will be going to the BRC in a GP N car.

A good S1600 battle would be a great spectacle

 

[almc]

Sorry mate people just don't have the budget to run them. They are not really that reliable and all the parts are specialist.

 

[Tropsrotom]

Yes ALMC

Leave them in class 6 where they are up against 106/206 cup cars, Civics etc etc.

I mean there is by no means enough S1600s in the country that they could have their own challenge.

 

[MUO 2R]

am i understanding this correctly? super1600 run in the same class as normal "clubman" 1600cc rallycars? seems a bit unfair to me!

 

[gn3dr]

MUO 2R you must not be very familiar with the class structures.

This debate was had on here before. If you separate S1600 cars from A6 then you should do the same with WRC cars from A8 & 2L kit cars from A7. Pointless - too many classes then with few cars in each one.

Just accept the fact that in each class there will be varying specs and capabilities of cars across the class. If you want to be winning the class then
a) you obviously have to be able to drive
b) you need a good car - the best you can afford.

Taking out S1600 cars only satisfies the pot hunters and goes towards making the class a one make 206 / 106 type of thing. I mean where do you draw the line? - Civics have a higher rev limit than 206's so take them out of the class as well????

On the original point I think a 1600 championship would be a good idea. I don't agree with it being mixed surface though. Too expensive to be changing cars over to suit and not everyone wants to bring a nice clean "tarmac use only" car into the forests where get will get ruined.

I also don't agree that the future will in any way be based on the BRC. That championship is a bit of a joke - even before teh switch to GPN. In fact it's current state is a perfect opportunity to put Ireland in the forefront of championships in Europe and get over this myth that the BRC is a stepping stone to World level. Unfortunately though, I think Irish motorsport is too slow to react to seize an opportunity like this...

The other point is that there is already a national championship for all classes but in practice this really only focuses on the A8 class. Ten events is also perhaps a bit too much for the national championship.
It is also impossible to comit to doing this championship because there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get an entry for each event - in fact it is very likely that you will not get an entry for a few events in a year. Only the top 3 in a class get priority so if you don't get into the first events you might as well forget it.

There is also the Tarmac championship but again this really only publicises A8 and perhaps N4 to a lesser extent. It is also very expensive to comit to because the events in the UK & the Ulster are significantly more costly to do than Irish based events. Eventually I think the Tarmac champsionship will run events that will be fully subscribed with homologated cars only and then perhaps it might be a more suitable time for a more publicised 1600 championship.

 

[dcr22B]

Originally posted by ral.ly
Then there's John Mulholland's Fabia vRS (a diesel)...which is running in class A8 at this weekend's Ulster...

was running J, it won't be starting because of problems with the roll cage.

 

[fatboymotorsport]

Originally posted by gn3dr
Taking out S1600 cars only satisfies the pot hunters and goes towards making the class a one make 206 / 106 type of thing. I mean where do you draw the line? - Civics have a higher rev limit than 206's so take them out of the class as well????

what about the pot hunter that spends 50-100 k on a s1600 just to win class 6 there is plenty of cars available to run in class 6 and also there is plenty of cars to run in a s1600 class most of the homologated class's are fairly equal except class 6 there isnt much between a 206 cup car or a civic it would be down to the driver but a badly driven s1600 would still beat them
its just the problem with irish rallying some people will spend 20-60k on a class 9 car to win a trophy where does the man in his nova or 1300 escort stand there.something will have to be done b4 the clubman disapeares from irish rallying.

 

[gn3dr]

OK I see your point but I disagree - the pot hunter to me is the guy that is looking for a class to be deliberately restricted to take the faster cars out - another example would be the 8 valve classes. At least the guy who goes out to buy the S1600 is trying to win by going the fastest on the stage.

The problem with Irish Rallying is not that guys will spend vast sums of money on a class 9 car - this doesn't stop the guy going out in his Nova or 1300 escort. He mightn't win but at least he will go out and have some fun.

The real problem is that the guy in the Nova or 1300 Escort or even the guy in the S1600 (yes they do end up on reserve lists) can't get an entry because the organisers of the sport haven't adjusted the way the sport is run since it became so popular.

And if you disagree with all this the overriding reason to keep class 6 as it is, is because that is the way the FIA run it everywhere else. Why should we feel we know better and put oursleves out in the cold in this country by making up our own rules? That's assuming we do want to be seen as a leading country in Rallying circles and to gain WRC status for an Irish event????

 

[Tropsrotom]

Originally posted by gn3dr
because that is the way the FIA run it everywhere else.

Ok so Im off to do the JWRC in my 206 cup car so..............

Will send you a post card to let you know how I get on

 

[fatboymotorsport]

S1600 have there place in irish rallying but i dont think its fair running them in class 6 what about a s1600 class like the had in the brc a few years ago that you can run a s1600 or some of the 1600 kit cars like the early puma's the 106's and the protons and leave class 6 to the near standard 206's 106's and civics
But there could be a clause to amalagate the class's if either did'nt have the right number saving the rally orginers some pots.
as for class 7 there isnt too many kit cars in this country and anyone there is, a good class 7 car could match in the right hands
and with the split in the modifished class's it is only fair to split them how is it fair that a standard 1600 205 who on a good day could win class 10 be up against a group 4 twin cam that could have 200 bhp that could win a single stage and the 205 might finish in the 40's
gn3dr what class do you rally in ?

 

[gn3dr]

Class 9 for the last 7 years....but have recently moved to class 6 in a S1600 - and no I can't drive it yet so I can prove that driven badly they can be beaten by 206's etc.!
Having being in the modified classes I feel that I can be objective in my comments on both these classes.

On your comment with a standard 205 vs a 200bhp twin cam - fair enough - no contest, but if there was only one class for both of these then the guy in the 205 might look at developing the car a bit and firing in a more modern 16V engine.
And this does not mean he has to throw money at it - it could be done cheaply. To me this is what the modified classes are about - a bit of innovation. If you're in the modified classes and keeping teh car standard then really you should just put the thing in storage and wait until it is eligable for historic rallying.

By the way I hardly think it is right to say that a class 6 206, 106 or civic is a "nearly standard" car....

Tropsrotom - I would suggest you bring a proper GpA 206 instead of a cup car.

 

[gn3dr]

I should of course add that I have nothing against 205's and think that the 205 championship was an excellent idea over the last 2 seasons. Setting up more championships like this, rather than manipulating classes, would solve some of the complaints being aired in this thread. The UK 1400 championship is another excellent example of something that should be tried over here.

 

[Tropsrotom]

Originally posted by gn3dr
Tropsrotom - I would suggest you bring a proper GpA 206 instead of a cup car.

I dunno Ger, I doubt I would be able to get into JWRC in either!

And I think most 206s in Irish Rallying are running cup spec still, apart from one that was down the Kerry neck of the woods and is in Limerick now I think??

 

[MUO 2R]

oh dear what did i start :dunno:

 

[Ted]

Correct me if I am wrong but if I'm not mistaken there are currently three drivers tied for the lead of Class 6 in the Dunlop National Championship, They are all driving different cars.
Eddie Power - Renault Clio S1600
Niall Guinevan - Peugeot 206 Cup Car
Domonic Naughton - Peugeot 106 Cup Car
There are other drivers behind these three in the overall standings in a mix of GPA 1600 cars and S1600 cars.
In my opinion the Class 6 structure is presently adequate for irish national rallying. It would be different if you had driver's such as Brian O' Mahony, Shaun Gallagher, Garry Jennings or Ken O' Neill competing in the National / Regional championships who are naturally quicker driver's and can make the difference and show the benefits of the S1600 cars more so then those currently using S1600 cars in the national series. Domonic Naughton and Niall Guinevan have proven that a good driver can make up the difference in cars by driver ability and I think if you ask these people it gives them that extra bit of eagerness to compete to the best of their ability to beat the S1600 cars and by doing this they enjoy the victory even more so.
Only my opinion & I am not speaking for any of the driver's mentioned above.

 

[Ted]

Originally posted by Tropsrotom

Originally posted by gn3dr
Tropsrotom - I would suggest you bring a proper GpA 206 instead of a cup car.

I dunno Ger, I doubt I would be able to get into JWRC in either!

And I think most 206s in Irish Rallying are running cup spec still, apart from one that was down the Kerry neck of the woods and is in Limerick now I think??

I for one can say that there are very few 106 or 206 Cup Cars still in their origional spec in Irish rallying. Most of them are using Proflex suspension, throttle bodies and management systems to name but a few items. This is something that is done nationwide and not just in kerry or limerick

 

[Tropsrotom]

oh ok? shows what I know!

I do know Proflex in a 106 is a big improvement.

But its nice to see lads improving the cup cars, makes for a better drive Im sure and it keeps the motorsport sales industry in business here

 

[Kit Car]

I mite just disagree with some them coments,

i think it should be spilt, i myself have had runs in s 1600's and been as quick as the owner during testing etc but then when i step back into a cup spec 206 they manage to take 10/15's a stage out of me!!

Think its very unfair that you should be 50/60 break down, less stopping power, narrower track etc and still be expected to put it up to them, i'll shake any persons hand that can!!

As for bring cup spec cars up i have done this to a 106 and yeah it helps but our still always going to be at a disadvantage due to homoligation restrictions to track etc!

Have to say i think most cup spec cars are still in ther cup spec and only a selected few have trottle bodies etc and even with this you'll still never have as cappable a car as a super 16.

Like what the ulster did by splitting the class and although ther was a few entries in classes if you had a full field it would have worked.

and no not trophy hunting just want to get the necessary class rins to enable me to get criteria to get entries in rallys!!

 

[rossgamble1987]

I was watching today ulster and i seen a 60k s16 fiesta in the same class as a 13k-15k 206 cupcar surley that wouldnt be fair !!

Fiesta 1600 16v ENGINE "fully Developed"
6 speed Seq Gearbox
60k worth

206 cup car 13k+
1600 16v sealed engine
5 speed near standard gearbox

now tell me thats a fair rally class

[Edited on 4-9-2005 by rossgamble1987]

 

[Kit Car]

Them Fiestas are more like £85k i think big price difference, but sure with all the super stars on this site they're well able to make up the difference!!